Waqas Khwaja: just getting your thoughts on a thought that sparked in my mind, two statements
a) I believe X is true
b) I know X is true
what chances you think of x being false in any of the above statements, which would be taken as a more profound one.
Idrees Azad: ”I know X is true” is your belief actually otherwise you can never claim, you know about.
Waqas Khwaja: you mean to say that all knowledge is belief?
Idrees Azad: No never. the statement …….. “I know”” express the feeling of belief
Waqas Khwaja: let us give it some prospective,
I am holding in my hand a glass right now, now if I let go, “I know it will fall down” I do not need believe right now to make this statement. Or Do I?
Idrees Azad: Yes you know that it will fall if you leave it. it’s your belief that it will fall
Waqas Khwaja: based on my knowledge right?
Idrees Azad: yes of course
Waqas Khwaja: that means it is not a statement of belief but is one of knowledge. Now let us consider an other scene, I believe I will wake up in the morning and have my breakfast.
I can never put I know there.
Idrees Azad: Very good. Happy to meet you. Sure. you are right
Idrees Azad: Please I am waiting what you bring out?
Waqas Khwaja: lol nothing in particular, I feel how ever that the position of belief is such a position which can be negated in future quite easily, and is there only in the absence of data required to form a conclusion based on Knowledge.
Waqas Khwaja: in other words it is very easy to say
I believed X was true but is not the case
I knew X was true but is not the case
Idrees Azad: of course it is. it’s always been. Beliefs have been so easily rejected.
Idrees Azad: What place belief occupy in normal human life. Not speaking of religious beliefs. just of beliefs as you mentioned one above?
for example I believe that i will jump over this canal and I can’t do so?
Does it take place automatically or we give it the place intentionally? Bottom of Form
Waqas Khwaja: well they are quite important, mind you believes such as we are talking about right now, although are not knowledge but are speculative in nature, they have their basis in our understanding of the world around us, and on the perception of our abilities to do certain things. And in that way they are really very alien to ‘Religious\ spiritual’ Believes any way. for example
two boxers of equal stature enter the ring most probably both believing that they will knock the other out. A degree of knowledge before hand in this event will render the fun out of the scenario.
Idrees Azad: Beautiful
Idrees Azad: But tell me one thing isn’t this, also knowledge?
which you mentioned as belief?
for example if i know that i will get up early in the morning and take breakfast as you mentioned as the example of belief. It’s based on the data we do have already. We have such knowledge which makes us to believe simultaneously as we think of.
and if this is knowledge then what example do you have for belief. Tow boxers example also is based on the knowledge, near them. they know the weight, and strength of each other and this , make them believe on victory. If they have doubts , of course your boxers do have, then you can’t say it’s believe at all. Beliefs never come in the room where a bit of doubt exists.
Waqas Khwaja :) you are right all along, it is in-fact knowledge but I do not agree on the last part that “belief never come in the room where a bit of doubt exist”.
when there is no doubt then it is not belief, it is knowledge. Actually it is doubt that initiate Belief in the first place, in my humble opinion. Now this doubt may be conditioned and a human brain tricked into believing that there is no doubt, but it stays.
What I mean to say that the reason Boxers have to resort to belief knowing one of them will eventually be wrong, is because of doubt. No?
Idrees Azad: Interesting. You gave me a new light, an insight. At least I am going to rethink the difference between knowledge and belief. According to your smashing argument………… knowledge is stronger than belief and how new this thing is?
Normally it is thought that belief is stronger than knowledge. But still there are some conflicts coming to my mind. for example we suppose we have the knowledge of injurious-ness of smoking but we don’t believe that it will damage our lungs unless it does. also we can have the knowledge of something as proper as it should be but we still don’t believe in that.
especially when emotions are involved we give up the directions of knowledge and do whatsoever our wish want to do. At the end we do have drawbacks of that wish. All this happens while we are knowing about and having the knowledge. Where knowledge stands and where does belief?
Please solve the puzzle Master!
Waqas Khwaja: lol on the smoking example I will abstain, as for I am a smoker too, and I not only know but believe that it is harmful for lungs, but with all this I also have the knowledge of addictive strength of Nicotine and what wonders the absence of it can play on the reward centre of my brain. 😉
on the subject of emotions, however what kind of emotions are we talking about. Emotions to me also form a subject of knowledge, and thus any abnormal behaviour under duress or anger or love etc. should be easy to understand.
Idrees Azad: ”lol on the smoking example I will abstain, as for I am a smoker too, and I not only know but believe that it is harmful for lungs, but with all this I also have the knowledge of addictive strength of Nicotine and what wonders the absence of it can play on the reward centre of my brain”
you are a genius, say exception, and this example doesn’t sufficiently counter my propositions.
“on the subject of emotions, however what kind of emotions are we talking about. Emotions to me also form a subject of knowledge, and thus any abnormal behaviour under duress or anger or love etc. should be easy to understand”
I totally disagree. Emotions to you also form a subject of knowledge? how? ……….. please throw some light on your claim so that we can understand your view point. What you feel easy to understand that’s not the thing which I mentioned above. I said, when you are in anger you have the knowledge of damage and destruction but you don’t stop yourself, because you can’t. Here, I am not asking you to gimme a brief on what emotions are? Just see in a glance. Why you don’t stop yourself from, when you are damaging things due to your emotional behavior while having the knowledge of that conclusions.
Ali Asghar Abbas: dear its very simple to understand the difference of belief and knowledge…………..umar bin hashaam have a knowledge that Muhammad P.B.U.H. was right and his sayings were true.but his belief in idols not allowaed him to convert his religion.so he a